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Why do People keep saying hitting is both Linear and Rotational?

Remember when dealing with Linear and Rotational mechanics the only part we are concerned with is the forward swing.  The load and stride do not establish whether or not a swing is Linear or Rotational.
If you look at linear hitters (Luzinski, Thurston) and rotational hitters (Pujols, Griffey, Jones) you will notice when their front heel lands all of them are in the same position, (shoulders closed, front foot slightly open, front knee bent, hands back, weight pretty even on both feet) it is what happens next the differentiates the two philosophies.

The only part that deals with these two philosophies is the the forward swing.  This means when the front heel hits what does the hitter do?

Simplified explanations:

If he lands and then slides his hips forward, throws his knob at the ball, and swings down on the ball he is a linear hitter, and thus does not have the bat on plane with the ball very long at all and the arms will be disconnected at contact.  Power V (or better said Un power V or Roll over V)
Examples: (Joe Thurston, Luzinski)

If the hitter lands, slots the elbow, and lets the rotation of the hips propel his swing through the strike zone he is a rotational hitter.  This allows the hitter to stay on plane with the ball as long as possible, and keeps the hitter connected for the longest period of time.  (Power L)
 Examples (every great hitter throughout history, with the exception of Ichiro)  Seriously (Ruth, Griffey Jr, Gwynn, Bonds, Pujols, Williams, Chipper Jones, Evan Longoria, Big Papi, etc...)

Please notice the difference in the point of contact for both of these hitters. 

Also, the earlier a hitter slots the back elbow the longer the area of impact will be for that hitter assuming they continue their rotation throughout the entire swing.

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Yes, they move the bat Rearward, this has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am talking about the forward swing, which the hands have nothing to do with. Please read my post and notice I say if the hitter achieves the proper positions during the load and landing rotational forces power the swing, the hands have nothing to do with the foward swing, except to hold the bat.

I agree with your posts regarding moving the hands back, I even say so in a post where I say some move more than others, but they do not power the swing not even a little bit they enjoy a free ride due to torque created pre pitch.

I am not looking to prove a point but does anyone have video of Barry Bonds in a Pirate uniform I would just like to compare the two know pre and post steroids to see if there were any significant changes. Swingbuilder good post and I agree with you.
I absolutely agree he is linear in the video. His hands extend with his hips only 90% rotated. His front knee is bent and his weight transfers.

By definition this is the poster swing for linear.

What people don't realize is the last half of the linear swing is a rotational swing.

1. Rotational hitters start in a crunch

2. Linear hitters move into crunch during stride.

This just means the back leg is elongated as he moves out of the crunch. This actually adds power because the linear move puts the back leg on toe and at a superior angle to push.

One problem is that linear is labeled sometimes by extreme linear hitters who don't use hips much at all. Ted Williams was indeed Linear whether we admit it or not..
Jr. ,
Ted Williams certainly did not start his hands first, also he certainly did not execute just a linear movement only and he certainly was not just a linear swinger, He employed both linear and rotational movements. Take a very close look at the video clip above and you will view his hips starting his movement. He may never have vociferously advocated the rear hip to be in front of the hands but he certainly did vociferously advocate that the "HIPS" "LEAD THE WAY" which gets the hands started, THE SCIENCE OF HITTING,"page.53 last paragraph, "HIPS LEAD THE WAY," last two sentences, and page 54, the timing during the hip shoulder rotation is so fine that to the naked eye that it looks like the hips and hands go together, the same linear sideways body movement to front foot touch down and hips leading the way for the shoulder rotation to follow also appears to be executed at the same time at front foot touch down when pitching.
There are a jillyan people who explain how Williams executed his hitting movement but all they do is explain it bass akwards, Due to the fact that most of the MLB players who attempt to teach do it one way and explain it another way, which I find is the way they feel it should be done and most likely the way it should be done. I take Williams explanations and photo diagrams more serious than some of the video clips of him because he goes into great detail during his explanations and photo's which I feel when someone does so they are personally serious about getting the intricate detail out, he has gone into great personal detail which does not show in video.
Ted's first two movements are, linear, forward foot step and rotational hips/ upper body rotation back around away from pitcher, both executed at the same time.
The most important body positional aspect in Ted's video clip is where his head is positioned which is most importantly centered between his shoulders, hips and his feet throughout his full swing movement, Where the head goes so goes the body, the head is the culprit that forces prematuer body weight shift out over the front foot.
Don Ervin
When we compare linear and rotational hitting we are mainly talking about hand path. In every swing the stride in linear, the hips move linear and then rotate, the shoulders rotate. So every swing has linear movement and rotational movement. Linear and Rotational are concepts of hitting the baseball. The true difference is how the hands word and the path that they take to the ball.

Rotational swingers have linear elements to their swing.
Linear swingers have rotational parts to their swing.

Looking at hand path and how the hands are applied, I would say Ted was a rotational hitter.
for the record. I would like to say I clearly understand all swings have linear and rotational portions. If you read the original post it talks about hand path which Jay just mentioned. This post was about the philosophies and since they are completely different the swing cannot use both.

I am a firm believer in the fact the baseball swing should be called a swing and not defined by other terms but since we use them, I wanted to make sure everyone understands the difference. Also, this has been a very good discussion although I was upset with how negative it turned sometimes I thought overall everyone brought some good points to the table. I know I have spent time thinking about what each person has said. Thanks for the great conversation.

This is two clips of George Brett who is consider a linear hitter by some which is obviously false. I think it is hillarious he is considered a Charlie Lau guy when he is about as rotational as it gets and notice the point of contact. It is the Power L not the Power V he is shown demonstrating in Lau's book. Elbow slots and torque whips forces the hips into a rotational manner which whips the hands. Brett is a Rotational hitter.
They are active because as your video shows the Front elbow is coming up and toward first base which is creating torque due the opposite reaction of the back elbow moving down. This torque moves the hands, which move the barrel, but if this opposite reaction did not occur the hands would control the swing and be slow and powerless.

The hands do not move by themselves they are moved by rotational forces throughout the swing.

Thanks again for allowing me to continue to teach, please post more video.
I believe you misunderstand what Linear is. Some linear hitters stand tall and the short stride puts them out over the front foot. Others have more flexed legs like Brett and it makes them more balanced.

They are still linear.

George's hips are pointed to left field which is a signature mechanic for linear hitters. They try not to rotate the center-line past the ball until contact, this lines up back leg drive with pitch location. Rotational theory is rotating the hips fully.

I have a masters rank in martial arts and linear hitting fits the tandon theory of power. Rotational places the tandon past the point of contact. It is less efficient on this link and then tell me George Brett does not power his swing with Rotational Mechanics. What keep Brett's hip slightly closed sometimes is how he strides closed not the fact he is a linear hitter.

so back to non baseball talk and onto Boxing.

Which punch is more powerful a Jab or Hook?
Which punch would best relate to linear and which one best relates to rotational?

I will say Jab=linear because there is no hip rotation just the hand extending from Point A to Point B.

I will say the Hook is Rotational...because it is powered by torso rotating

Also, lets say a Jab is a single and Hook is a HR, you would have to land an awful lot of jabs to score a run but one hook could land you at home plate (your opponent on the canvas)

Yes you will land a Jab more but the hook will do more damage.

Also, remember the ball has already determined what it is going to do before the hitters foot gets down (most hitters, some get it down really early) where in boxing you rely on deception and that is why combos or just simply throwing a jab with no intention to land it rather just let it set up your hook are commonly used in boxing.

Also, with hitting you are dealind with a ball that is coming on a downward angle toward home plate which again in boxing you do not have. Rotational mechanics have the bat on plane with the ball for a longer period of time. In linear hitting the bat is not on plane with the object (ball) it needs to make contact with for very long that is why linear hitting is not all that efficient.

I am going to use the king of linear swing (Ichiro) vs. The best hitter in baseball right now (Pujols)

Pujols rotational vs. Ichiro Linear. I think this is fair because it is the best linear hitter vs. the best rotational hitter. These are career averages over the same exact time frame 2001-2010

Pujols .331-42HR-128 RBI- 44 2B- 2 3B-95BB- 67K-.426 OB%- .624 SLG% 123 Runs Scored
Ichiro .331- 9 HR- 57 RBI -26 2B- 7 3B- 47BB- 70K-376 OB%- .420 SGL% 107 Runs Scored

Please tell me which is more efficient. I know people will say Ichiro has more AB's than Pujols that is why he strikes out more but he also has more chances to hit HR/2B/3B and drive in runs and score runs which he does not do except a few more triples.

Why does this occur? Because when you use rotational mechanics you drive the ball and when you use linear mechanics you do not. Most guys who hit like Ichiro do not stay around very long, he happens to be a freak, but there are a ton of guys who use the same Mecanics as Pujols in the big leagues right now.

Look at the difference in Andres Torres numbers before and after he learned the proper rotational mechanics. When he was coming up, everyone saw his speed and wanted the ball on the ground so he used linear mechanics that look similar to Ichiro's, Since Joining the Giants he uses rotational mechanics and he has revived his career.
that is a good point because the swings in BP count for the game don't they. Who cares about BP. I am a monster in BP, I have even hit balls out of (Bank One Ball Park) Chase Field in Arizona but that never seemed to transfer into the game, so I never made it.

Have you ever heard of a five o'clock hitter, can it be that Ichiro has five o'clock HR power?
All good hitters employ linear and rotational movement. They start with linear, also described as positive movement, once they get to toe touch they go into rotation.
Guys, I just noticed I wote this backassward. Sorry guys .


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